Question:
Style vs. Style: "Styles don't fight, people do" (Re-asking)?
clown(s) around
2010-04-12 04:04:10 UTC
"Styles don't fight, people do" is a popular answer when a style vs. style question comes up.

Does the concept of Mushin negate the idea that a style does not fight?

If the style does not fight, how does it help a person fight?

Best answer will go to most thought out thorough answer

**This is not a question about a style fighting a style but a question to see if the styles fight or how they help once an actual fight happens.**

Sorry to the people who answered the incomplete question
Nine answers:
pugpaws2
2010-04-12 07:33:50 UTC
Mushin is the concept of "mind of no mind". Basically when someone trains to the point of being able to engage an attack with not real conscious focus on what they are going to do. Almost as if the body just takes over and does what is necessary. I'm not understanding what it is you are asking for. Mushin has nothing to do with the style a person uses.



Styles are collections of technique and philosophy bound within a training/teaching format. As far as I'm concerned if a person trains properly, it matter little what techniques he uses. What I'm saying is that styles are as much for peoples minds as they are to contain the structure of the style/art.

In other words, people want to rope off a set of techniques and philosophy and put a name on it. An example happened years ago that made me put a name on what I was teaching. I had left the organization and style that I studied.

The head of the style told me that I would not be allowed to train my students, yet use the style name on anything, especially ranks I issued. Makes sense considering I was no longer in that organization. For a while I just taught. But the problem is that people want a name on what you teach. Potential students coming in wanted a name for what I was going to teach them. I guess it is human nature. I never wanted to give it a name. I just wanted to teach what I had learned from my instructors. but 99.9% of the people are way to concerned with what style they study. So i gave it a name which I still use. It has been a blessing and a curse.



What I teach has strong roots in traditional martial arts. But it is not from one style. It is heavily influenced by one style. At the same time it is unfair and inaccurate to use that style name to indicate what I teach.



Bottom line here is simply this......... Mushin is a concept that has been around for centuries. In reality there are extremely few people that ever reach that point. Even for those that do, style does not matter. in any fight there is skill, training, understanding,..... Then there are many other factors that can't be controlled no matter how much training a person has. Things like surprise, location, number of attackers, available weapons, and so forth come into play. Then there is the one factor that most people forget about, ignore, or just don't think matters. That factor is luck. Finally in any situation the ability of the defender to concentrate varies. no one functions at peak levels mentally or physically all the time. Or just because you want to or need to.



Sorry if this is off the topic you intended. It is just how I see things, as related to your question.





...
2010-04-12 12:34:56 UTC
Mushin, cannot negate the idea of style vs style, because it is a different, noninclusive subject altogether. Others have given what mushin is so I'll refrain from being redundant. (Judomofo, pugpaws2, and Shihan J)



The style helping a person fight, is largely based on training methods as Judomofo stated. I would say that percentage (if it could be broken into a percent group), would have to be about 95% of importance. The other 5% is the cohesion of the style, and the body and mind. While there are no 'bad' styles, there are styles that work better for certain people than others. Some people train in one and they love it, but find themselves to be missing something and reach a plateau. Some of those people are able to branch out and study something different, and in doing so find that this new style works better for them and they surpass this initial plateau, or they find it's not so great and they return to their style, but with a more open mind. Unfortunately, not everybody can afford to experiment, as they don't have the time, they don't have the school choices, or they are even afraid of leaving where they are.



Everybody, that studies/lives the martial way has a chance to be the best, and as cliche as it may be, it is always in how they train. I know, that there may be rebuttal about this sentence, but it is true. Just because somebody is at a mcdojo even, doesn't mean they cannot overcome the obvious obstacle and become great. They, can train at every spare moment they have, they can train with other friends who study a martial art, or even friends that do not. They can train with other students from the mcdojo, and push their own training pulling the functionality from the 'known' dances their instructor calls kata. Most people though, from the child to the adult are content with where they are and have no real desire to be the best they can be, or push the envelope.



Success, is based on the individual's desire to succeed, and if it is strong enough, it will happen, no matter the style.



The style matters as I mentioned earlier a very small percentage, but it does matter, to the individual. It is only an individual thing as every person is different, and cannot be universal.



(I had this 'great' idea of using tools from a toolbox as an example, but it just failed miserably, so I'm writing this sentence instead. haha)
judomofo
2010-04-12 06:01:26 UTC
This is never an argument I would use.



I would say training methodologies matter, styles not so much. If you train something properly, in an alive manner against fully resisting partners, then you will learn what works and what doesn't, and everything else falls by the way side unless it helps reinforce what works.



I would say it is impossible to acheive true Mushin without training properly. Also I don't think the idea of Mushin negates the idea that a style doesn't fight. How else are going to achieve Mushin if you never train a style properly to develop autonomous responses.



Mushin as an idea is universal, if you train properly you get to the point you just react. Even in Non Asian styles you still get to the level that you acheive Mushin you just might not call it as such.



However, what you have honed at that point will be what you do, and still be in the realm of what you have trained.



For example, throw a leg kick at a Thai fighter, notice he will check the leg kick in the manner he has practiced all his life, and he will not think about it. Throw a leg kick at a kickboxer, notice his immediate reaction is to absorb it while countering with a straight right.



Both are done without thought, they are empty minded responses that come from training for years. However, stylistically they are both completely different in how they approach or counter that particular technique. Is either one more right than the other?



Rickson Gracie is a big proponent of Mushin, though he calls it something different. However granted his approach to a fight whilst in Mushin is vastly different than Mas Oyama's approach with Mushin would have been.



Styles mean something absolutely, how you train is going to be the way you fight. But it doesn't mean one in particular better than others, more that it is a different approach. Provided you trained properly, and the quality of instruction you have is how effective you will be.



Keep in mind, Mushin doesn't mean you can't get your butt kicked, it doesn't mean you can't lose, get shot, get stabbed, or just get out punched. It just means you are reacting without thinking, your reactions and movements are automatic, not contrived or having to go through conscious thought.



The truth is in a real fight you are going to do what comes natural period, that is where good training vs. bad training comes into play. If you have trained properly, your techniques and reactions are effective. If you have trained improperly, you will know it exactly then, when you aren't doing any technique but turtling up, or wildly swinging. You are reacting naturally, and your training didn't make your techniques natural reactions.



I think most people who answer this way are all thinking in one sort of same vein... that "it is the fighter, not that style" and to a degree that is true. Some people have natural instincts, and physical attributes that may make them more effective in a fight, or even different insights and training.



But that is a small part of it. In the end training methods, and quality of instruction matter as far as effectiveness. Regardless as to how you deal with a punch (block, duck, slip, evade, crash, or trap) the fact that you stop that punch from hitting you is the bottom line. You won't be able to do any of those things without it being Mushin and done automatically. Stylistically your reaction is going to depend on your training. A boxer would slip, a Karateka would block, etc. Both are effective at the bottom line but both handle it in different ways.



Just my two cents.
idai
2010-04-12 06:52:02 UTC
Hi there



Styles give you techniques that you can use in different situations. I won’t go into the details etc as were all grown up enough to know the benefits of what each art try’s to teach us. After that its then down to the individual as to how they use them and more importantly how quickly they can respond and see opportunity and openings in different situations. Realistic training methods simulate these types of situations and also apply the pressure and the need for physical fitness to be tested. However realistic training isn’t beating the crap out of someone by throwing your weight around because you’re not testing any of your newly developed skills other than what god gave us by doing so. I personally believe that nature creates natural grunts and natural thinkers. Life experiences also play a big part as to what a person is capable of doing to someone and also taking from someone. For example someone who has been brought up with violence accepts it as part of the norm. Muscles are easy to train but the emotions of mind are much more difficult as it takes experience over time to change someone’s emotional thinking pattern. It’s always been about the man. You don’t need any martial skills to be good fighter. The training is an additional bonus. The naked truth is even with years and years of training some people will never have the mind of a fighter and martial arts will always be a hobby or past time. It’s a hard pill for many practitioners to swallow. But having said that the path to learning this is different for everyone. Some people want to learn how to fight but won’t accept that they don’t have a fighters mind. Many MMA school boy fans on here are a prime example of this. Others follow the traditional path and get sucked into the unrealistic training methods and history behind it all. The bottom line is as an individual you need to have some martial maturity and see where you’re training has taken you and what it all means to you. This means not having your head in the clouds or cling to the conventional training rails. The training is and always will be about fighting and form’s, sparring, Kata etc teach you to do this in their own round about way. Whether you’re capable of doing it after you learn it all is another thing entirely. An individual cant blame the arts for getting there **** kicked. It’s their **** not the art that got the kicking. I’m not an MMA fan or a traditional fan even though I prefer the traditional way. I’m a principles man. Master the principles of the techniques not the art form. And it’s the principles of movement that all the arts have in common with each other.



Best wishes



idai
Kokoro
2010-04-12 08:31:26 UTC
most of this i'm cutting from my previous answer,



mushin isnt so much about style but a concept or a state of mind one strive to achieve, this state of mind should be in almost every style, several people have already gave a good explanation of what mushin is



as for style vs style, as much as i hate this example, if anything i would thing that mma has proven there is one one superior style. except for of course that shotokan guy he proved that shotokan is after all the best. i have no idea what his name is but he is unbeatable. lol



even in the same style people teach differently as well as fight differently they have different habits, some are more defense other offensive, there is no one cookie cutter model even for one style let alone the thousands that exist.



one of my friends years ago, was a horrible fighter, when it came to karate, he change to kung fu and his fighting abilities improved greatly, not so much because of the one style was worst but because the other style fit him better, the way he moved and his personality, all fell perfectly into that style.



to some extend the style defends a person and how they fight, train and there tactics, you should be able to adapt the style and movements to the way your body moves, as well as to it should help you understand yourself.
2016-09-28 07:25:34 UTC
Krav Maga, the Israeli forces have been experienced with it for attempt against, yet another may be Wing Chun which makes a speciality of close attempt against ALOT so it must be functional, yet I recommend Krav Maga in the journey that your enemies are armed, while it includes fist scuffling with, do Wing Chun yet be confident to combine it with some kicks, Wing Chun focuses too a lot handy strikes, Wing Chun is a marginally undemanding artwork with purely some strikes to understand and no "mixtures", to memorize, in basic terms counters and be confident to triumph over the tooth out of your enemies in Krav Maga, you're able to be slightly solid, yet no longer in Wing Chun, ANY length or potential might properly be suited in Wing Chun, prepare grappling and floor scuffling with, yet maximum of all, stay removed from difficulty, be confident to coach assorted martial arts, each a sort of has strengths and weaknesses, in basic terms like Wing Chun, its a particular quarter upward push up scuffling with sort, combine some useful kicks, grappling and floor scuffling with and you're arranged, guard your self obtainable
roscoe6005wright
2010-04-12 07:39:09 UTC
Back in the university, I had a friend who was a 4th dan black belt in GoJu- his dad was a 9th degree red belt and president of his own karate system. This kid got his **** handed to him by an unschooled fraternity boy who was drunk and had done some lifting. (this was 83-85 or so)



This kid was so depressed that he was ready to give up martial arts entirely and go back to being a white belt. I tried to lighten the mood by saying- "go back to your dad, bend over, take what you have coming to you, and move on." He sort of laughed. So I said, look, are you or your dad better than Bruce Lee was? He said heck no! both of us together couldn't have beat Bruce Lee.

So I said remember, Bruce lost fights in HK, and his losses spurred him to be the best.

Use this as motivation to be your best- be so good now that this kid who beat you will want to be your student!
jwbulldogs
2010-04-12 07:46:52 UTC
As a traditional martial artist every technique that we use can be found within our kata. However, our kata or style does not dictate what technique we use when we are fighting. Every style has a chest block, leg block, straight punch, reverse punch. In shorin ryu we fight in close. If I were a boxer I would fight from a distance. Fighting in close may be uncomfortable for a boxer. Here lies the problem as I see it. We have all seen old kung fu movies. Unfortunately many have taken what thy have seen in the movies to apply to all martial arts. Example: The movies have made it out that you use snake style to counter crane. You use monkey to counter snake. You use tiger to counter snake. You use dragon to counter the mighty tiger. That would make your training so rigid that you can only do this technique when they do their technique. That made a good movie. I can't say how much of that is true in 5 animal kung fu and how much of that is just a great story. However, when we train we are taught not to expect a certain technique like stated in above with a style vs style fight. We are taught to react to the technique. As we progress in rank we should have many techniques to counter a straight punch, reverse punch, sucker punch, or ridge hand. As a yellow belt in my dojo we require that you know and perform at least 5 counters to every attack. Each rank you go up you are required to demonstrate more techniques. It goes up depending on the rank. Now in reality when fighting you don't have time to think of which technique to use. You don't choose a technique by what style the other person is using. Because you have done this hundred and thousands of times you respond or react with an appropriate counter for the attack. That is when you have achieve a state of mushin so to speak. You have an empty mind. You don't attempt to anticipate what they are going to do and then what you are going to do. You allow the training to take over. You have to be ready to transition from one technique to another. It should flow without thinking. You adjust what you do determined by what they do.



When I was still competing in judo. Let say the guy threw me. Now that I was on the ground I knew I had to reverse my position to give me an advantage. Next I may go for a pin. But as they try to prevent me from pinning them they give me their back. My transition depending on what they give me might cause me to go for a choke. If they block the choke I move for another pin or an arm bar. My skill set would determine what I used. Some dojo taught their students to lay flat. My sensei never allowed us to lay flat to protect ourselves on the ground or to lay on out knees in a fetal position. He considered this a weak defense. I understand they were doing this because the rules in judo says that if you don't get a pin or submission is 30 seconds the ref is supposed to stand them back up. However, we were allowed to do this. On our patch was an eagle a predator. The eagle attacks its prey. It is an hunter. No matter what position we were in we were attacking. We had to find the opening and use it and not wait for or depend on the ref to help us.
2010-04-12 13:21:34 UTC
There are some great answers on here (Judomofo and Pugs) but one thing to keep in mind is that the majority of martial arts outside of the traditional arts do not have any idea of what Mushin is let alone have the ability to help students to achieve it in their training.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...