Why do so many people hate ATA ?

Question

Why do so many people hate ATA ?

Answer 1

I don't hate them. I just hate what they've done to Taekwondo. Occsionally, we get a student who used to be part of ATA. Either they were unhappy with the way things were run (and boy did we get an earful). Or, they moved away and simply joined with a different school - oblivious or content with their prior training.



So, what has ATA done?



They - like other schools of other styles - hand out ranks that, by layman's stereotype - are indicative of skill, dedication, and knowledge. There is no merit in their testing: it's based solely on the number of classes attended, not by the student's capability.



They allow their students to think they can defend themselves, yet have never been hit harder than a mere slap across a foam-enshrouded face.



They have a business model that is based on membership, advancement, black belt, and startup of a new school. That fact that martial concepts are used is immaterial: "pay us, we award you, you pay it forward to new students. Everyone wins. Here, sign here..."



They have dubious business practices - techniques that are outlined in a booklet that school owners get on startup of a franchise. These deceptive practices are reminiscent of a car showroom salesman. No one frowns, no one has any problems, they are oddly your best and long-lost friend. Many will stop at nothing to get you to sign a contract. The longer the contract, the less the monthly payments go. Sound like a Ford (or Chevy...) car deal?



If there's a question about quality, just ask any black belt what "bunhae" means. Ask them to show an example of it.



You've learned something? Like how to kick? How to spar? How to defend against a punch? Break a board? Ok... you've learned "how". But have you learned the "why"?



Why do you perform forms? What does it REALLY mean to be a black belt? Why do you break? What is the instructor's philosophical statement on self-defense? What concepts in self-defense are discussed?



Have you questioned the concept of leadership or black belt clubs? Like... if two students joined, but one wasn't part of a black belt club, does that mean that one can't be a black belt?



One guy came in a few years ago fuming because in order for him to earn his black belt, he had to learn techniques that wouldn't be taught to him, unless he was part of a black belt club where they taught the techniques. I asked, "what if you learned outside of the school", he replied that that wouldn't count because you had to be taught by the instructors there.



And on it goes. When you go to a martial arts class, the mantra is about self-defense. When you go to a martial sport class, the mantra is about winning and strategy. When you go to an ATA class the mantra is about your account, your dues, paying for this, and paying for that. People feel dirty coming out of these classes.



Not all ATA schools are bad - some are really good. They teach outside the box - they introduce concepts outside the normal curriculum. Some have outstanding forms performers. Some are great competitors.



But the majority of schools are just places run by someone who didn't originally have any intention to be running a business that has never - and will never - be very profitable.



They do have plus sides; I'll grant you that. It can be a family affair. The curriculum is great for kids. There is something to be said for being fat, dumb, and happy. For many folks, they're quite content with this - whether or not they know they're being ripped off. Nothing wrong with this. Just please don't call it "Taekwondo". It's giving the rest of us practitioners a bad rep.



That's why I hate what ATA does.



@EDIT, Folks, can we get a few things straight? First, ATA isn't sloppy. The practitioners might be, but not the org. Second, it's not that ATA isn't recognized by other organizations - they are. Kukkiwon, for instance, can't deny the existance of ATA, and they don't state that ATA isn't a Taekwondo organization. Similarly, they don't go around spouting that WJF isn't Taekwondo, nor that it isn't Judo. Kukkiwon recognizes only WTF - to the exclusion of ALL other styles, including that are what we might label as "real taekwondo" - like ITF, Chung do Kwan, Tang Soo Do, etc. As to competition, all WTF events are "open" to any style - as long as they follow a set of rules (that typically favor Taekwondo). Third, ATA does not copyright anything. Only written things may be copyrighted. What they restrict is the use of their forms for competition in non-sanctioned ATA events. Demonstration to others is perfectly permissible. It's not a trade secret. it's not even clear what the penalties are for "violating" this. A contract-breaker, maybe?

Answer 2

I have many things I dislike about the ATA, but two of the biggest things I hate the most is, 1st, how they let people get by with sloppy technique even into black belt ranks. It's sloppy... VERY badly sloppy and poor quality technique and form. Every single ATA school I've ever seen has never taught the correct ways to perform any technique, from blocking to stance work. They let too much slide by and obviously simply don't care if the student is doing it right or not. No corrections are ever made. Any that are attempted are either so basically fundamental it goes no where else from there, or nit picking by just telling the student they're doing it wrong. Chodan is not a rank that should be walked into. The ATA has truly bastardized the meaning of Chodan by producing Chodan that know less than what a 7th Gup in a real Taekwondo school would already know, and I'm not kidding about that. Many 7th Gup students in an ITF school that I've seen are better than even 3rd Dan rank ATA students.



The second thing I hate is how the ATA disassociates themselves with all other schools. All their tournaments are ATA only, and no ATA student is allowed to participate in other events sponsored by any other martial art school.





There is so much wrong with the ATA. It's a daycare service and a belt mill. There are plenty of other ways to pat a child on the back for doing absolutely nothing. It gives the child a false idea of the martial arts and giving them false confidence into real self defense. It's dangerous what they're doing, and it's a mockery to real Taekwondo, let alone all traditional schools.



The ATA can't make up it's mind on whether or not to call themselves Taekwondo or Karate. It's not even a legitimate style of Taekwondo, and it sure as heck NOT Karate.





The ATA is sloppy. That's my biggest issue with them. If they didn't cater to little kids all the time, dish out belts like they were candy, and taught something legitimate then there wouldn't be a problem. If you're going to make something exclusive, they should at least give it the grandeur of a VIP pass to the Sistine Chapel, not a generic McDonald's that exists everywhere.

Answer 3

ATA does not teach martial arts.



They teach martial arts LIKE movements.



So you're paying for martial arts but you are getting a facsimile of it.



It's like going to a restaurant and ordering a steak. The waiter comes back and places a picture of a nice grilled steak with mushrooms on the table where your real steak should be.



Their business ethics are quite poor and they lock you in to a contract.



You can't quit until your contract tells you it's okay to.



Also - you claim that you have learned something... have you ever trained in martial arts before? I ask this because if you don't have a way to measure the authenticity of your "art", you will never know if you are studying the real thing or not.



Read ALL the answers - not just the one that feeds your ego.



Edit:



@ a1990 - You have no clue of what kata is. Your view of it is what is typical in the sport aspect of karate and what I call "Partial Arts". I trained in kata and I can tell you that my ability to protect my life against anyone and walk away unscathed is of the highest level. (Not to brag-which I never do)



Practicing kata the way is typically done in the west describes what you posted, but that is not true karate. Until you train under instructors like mine, you should stop making unfounded statements like the one you made. You have no instrument of measurement to prove your statement. And the Youtube videos showing "traditional" martial artist being creamed by BJJ only proves that there are more "partial arts" schools than REAL Martial Arts schools.



@mantis - You have conjoined two extremes while excluding the reality that exists in between them in the form of Classical Martial Arts. ATA falls into its own category of being a scam and nothing more. There is NO martial content in anything that ATA does.



I don't know if you do study mantis but I am very familiar with Six Harmony Mantis - a northern style and Southern Mantis. I study and practice Fujian White Crane Fist and I teach Okinawan Karatejutsu. I also trained in Sun Style Hsing I Chuan. I think I have a good understanding of the Classical Arts and I know someone who after I warned him against, sent his son to ATA, because that's what he wanted. He got his blackbelt before he was 9 years old. The kid knows nothing at all about martial arts. He's 14. I sat and watched a few times. It is appalling.



The statements you both made are way off the mark. Neither considers the reality that is what I and others right here have made part of our lives. Some people here learned the real thing.



There are not two extremes and nothing else in between. Trust me. If you believe that, you falter.



Edit:



@kevin, hey you down there... you didn't mention anything about my comments on their martial arts "content".



You must be a parent or an adult student that has been sucked in by their scam. You, or your child(which ever it is attending) are not learning martial arts. If you went to a store and asked for a shirt and you were given the word shirt written on a piece of cloth, would you pay for it? I believe not! But yet, you are paying BIG money for martial arts but you're not getting any martial arts training.



There are people here who have real training in martial arts and know the difference. We can tell whether or not a person knows and has trained, or is a beginner, novice or long term practitioner - just by how he/she answers or posts questions here.



We're not "haters" as some have insinuated. There is no other reason for our answers but to let the truth be known about these liars and scammers. You should be thanking us for not holding back the truth about ATA. But that would probably hurt your ego. Let it go and you'll feel better. At least you would do others a favor by showing they are not worth the piece of paper their certificates are printed on.



The history itself says that ATA's founder learned a series of forms in 4 days. In other words - he became a master after having taken a seminar from General Choi. That's not something I would proudly hail!

Answer 4

ATA is a study in what a martial arts organization should NOT be. The Kukkiwon, the Korean government agency dedicated to Taekwondo, does not recognize Songahm Taekwondo, the style advertized by the ATA. There are several nuances of a mcdojo built right into the organization (black belt club, master's club, membership contracts, CAMOUFLAGE FREAKIN' BELTS, copyrighted forms, you name it). It's also odd that students are barred from participation in open tournaments. I could consider forgiving that, all of it, if there weren't so many young children running around with black belts. They don't even pretend to offer real Taekwondo training. It's tragic.

Answer 5

I could write a book on what is wrong with the ATA and what it teaches. you say that you have learned from the ATA. But you are judging a subject that you are not well educated in. If you feel that you have learned there, that is your opinion. but I'm betting that if you put that knowledge up against a good traditional style of martial arts, you would find out differently. notice I am not specifying a style. It does not matter what style. If you want to know in greater detail why i hate the ATA, I'll be happy to email you a few of the pages and pages of info on them. If you care to read it send a request to me at [e-mail]. I can't send it through Y/A messaging because tit is longer than the text limit Y/A has. fro the record i have nothing against any style of martial arts. I do have a big problem with any organization that rips people off while teaching junk. Sorry if this upsets you. but would you rather I not answer, or not tell you what I know to be true. I've been a student researcher and instructor for most of the last 44 years. I have seen it all. The ATA is not what you may think it is. you may like the classes, people and instructors, but that has nothing to do with training being legitimate and realistic self-defense or not.

By the way I go out of state this week so if you write before I leave I'll answer. Otherwise it will be a week later.

Answer 6

most people hate it because of the extreme mcdojoism of the organization. they dropped alot of standards and promote anyone who continues to pay their ridiculous prices.

Answer 7

Because it was founded by foreigners who then realized they had an untapped market for TKD in the US that could be exploited if they could water stuff down and brainwash their students.



Not really ethical behavior all in all. Since it's your money, presumably, you can spend it on the ATA if you wish. But the rest of us will gladly tell the truth that this kind of commercialism has done a disservice to TKD, politically and martial skill wise, both in the past, the present, and will in the future.



http://www.martialartswellnesscenter.com/ata_history.html



The history sounds like it's cult. Because it is a cult. That's just how it is. Cult members wouldn't join the cult if they thought it was bad right?

Answer 8

I have friends who are trained in Tae Kwon Do. They are great martial artists.



I don't really know anything about the ATA, except for the horror stories that I hear on Yahoo Answers. Pugpaws2 and Daoshi are telling you to avoid the ATA.



There are a few chains of McDojos that have their roots in my style Kajukenbo. The connection is very weak, but the connection is there. These McDojos ride on the backs of a martial art that is legitimate. Pugpaws2 and Daoshi are also telling people to avoid those McDojo chains also. They claim that they are as bad as the ATA or worse. I would listen to them.



If I would not recommend that you go to the McDojo chain that has their roots in Kajukenbo, you should not go to a McDojo that has their roots in Tae Kwon Do either. We are all looking out for your own good, and we want you to learn real martial arts.

Answer 9

It was two years ago when one person give a link to us, wherein it was a volume of posted videos showing how sloppy they are when performing a techniques, it was a Black Belt promotion and sad to say that if they are in our training facility, they will get beaten by our white belts, they are bit lucky if they can score with them during tournament.



I am not trying to down you with this but you must wake up on reality, because having a smoke around, simply means there is a fire.



What I mean is, if there are some rumors about how bad certain training place is, then it only means that you need a background checking and proper investigation by yourself to assure what you hear, so sad if you realize that you had been stayed on the wrong dojang / dojo, and you just wasted your time for year or years.



Once time had pass, it will never coming back again, being a victim of scam does bad experience knowing you are also paying for the purpose of achieving some important skills and knowledge related to Martial Arts matter, but what you get is not that accurate and efficient compare to other training place.



Don't let your ego and pride govern you, try to seek the truth and feel free from the burden.





. . . . . . . .

Answer 10

Money aside, ATA are crappy schools, and yes I have been a member of the ATA in the past (not any more). While I attended the school I actually saw someone (roughly 7 years old) pass their 'recommended black belt' test with their finger in their nose. I've seen young children pass their test by standing there angrily with their arms crossed and crying because they didn't want to take the test and their mom was making them do it.



The ATA is one of those things that parents love because they get to tell everyone their kid is taking Taekwondo, and is well on his way to a black belt. Their kid is also getting off the couch and moving around exercising. Parents love it. Kids tend to love it because they are jumping around yelling "HIYA!" and wearing a martial arts uniform and getting tested all the time gives them the incorrect feeling that they are learning real martial arts and can defend themselves in the event of a fight. And of course the school loves it because they make boat loads of money. It's Win-Win-Win!



The problem lies when the ATA kid gets in a fight with someone who actually has been trained in a real martial art and the ATA kid ends up in the hospital...

Answer 11

You ask a bad question.. You will NEVER get an answer for that on here that is not prejudice... People hate a lot of the aspects of the ATA, they lump EVERY school together because of the organization..



A lot of the answers give on here are by some that WILL NEVER change their opinion NO MATTER what anyone says..



They claim that the TKD is not compatible with other TKD styles, which is ignorant because they are the same... Just because they are NOT traditional..



They claim that "NO ONE IN THE ATA" is allowed to go to open tournaments, which is NOT true.. We do all the time.. And my 12 year old has placed in forms and sparring... HMMM



They don't like that ATA has a CAMO belt, OMG really a CAMO belt.. PLEASE... Its just a color..



They don't like that ATA has young black belts.. Well I do agree that they should be OLDER....



They yell about contracts, EVERYONE HAS CONTRACTS!!!!!!!



They say that ATA dues are to high, but I have looking into ITF and WTF and they have contacts and fees that are NOT much lower than ours..



Keep up the work, train hard and improve yourself.. Keep high standards, if you question yourself during a testing DON'T TEST until your ready.. It is NOT a race, it is a life....





EDIT: @Daoshi -- I have studied other MA and am a current student.. I have taken traditional TKD and karate, truly don't see much difference.. I have been in MA since the mid 80's so I am NOT new to this..

You mentioned that I did not say anything about content, while I can not speak to all the other schools I can say that OUR school (and the schools around us) spends a lot of time on self-defense, and explaining what each move is for in our forms and how to implement them. We spend time during sparing, talking about techniques and ways to interpret your opponent.



AND get your facts straight.. He was a Master BEFORE he me General Choi... and to learn traditional forms in 4 days, wow.. Must have been intense training, because to say otherwise is to say the traditional forms are too easy..

Answer 12

I'm not going to hate, I'm just going to bring out the two facts that are objective.



1. ATA is not recognized as a legitimate style of TKD from Korea.



2. The forms are copyrighted and students have to sign a waiver that they won't show them to others.



Kevin has opened my mind to not stereotype, but no one can change the facts above.



@EDIT - J brings up a big pet peeve regarding ATA. It says it is Taekwondo but many of the schools' signs on the doors say "Karate For Kids". What are you? These arts are not interchangeable.



@possum - I don't understand your edit. If many of the schools teach sloppy techniques: incomplete strikes or blocks, messy stances, wouldn't that be considered as J mentioned teaching sloppy techniques? Additionally, Kukkiwon does recognize ITF and the original kwans as TKD, they just don't have the authority to promote based off of those styles because Kukkiwon only promotes based off of the WTF curriculum, there is a difference there, right? I think even Korea knows the ATA exists, just don't recognize the style as TKD. Third, copyrighting, ATA does not allow the Songhams to be videoed for publication for an organization to make profits, isn't this the basis around copyrighting? I can say "just do it" all I want, but when I try to market or sell that statement, I infringe Nike's copyright. Maybe the correct word is patent, not copyright. Sure, you can go on youtube and find videos but these are not for profit and many parents have been slapped on the wrist for posting these forms so much that many times now you will only see the first half or second half of the Songham form on the video, not the entire form. Just trying to get clarification from your post.

Answer 13

Sorry to break this to you but: 1/ breaking a board =/= strong your boards are made out of plastic and are rebreakable... my brother, who was eight when we still lived in NY and who went to ATA martial arts in Brooklyn Park, broke boards for his black belt test too. I don't believe that just because he could punch through those plank he is very strong. I got punched by him several times (when we were arguing) and what happened was.....I got bruised. 2/breaking a board =/= being a good fighter Bruce Lee: "a board doesn't fight back" (or move, rather unlike a human) 3/"I VERY GOOD NOW, IF SOM1 ATTACK ME ON STREET I PROBLY KILL THEM" False confidence, much? Thats the matter with mcdojogs. Even if they do non contact sparring (apprantly its no contact because it "too deadly") they still try to make you think that you are a very good fighter. How could you be though? Even if you know all the words in the dictionary, you will not be able to write well without practise. Likewise, even if you know all the moves, you will not be able to fight well because you never practised. Having an attitude like that will probably get you into some serious trouble. Now, why do most people don't like it 1/ It doesn't teach in a realistic manner (see what I have written above). 2/ Its very expensive. My mum paid $130 a month for my little brother to learn taekwondo. When our family moved to Hong Kong in late 2008, I told mum that I wanted to learn taekwondo with my brother as well. She signed both of us up for lessons. Nowadays, she pays $45 for each of us for the same amount of time my little brother had each week. Only a third of what she used to give to ATA! I am also thinking of taking up bjj and that costs $40 :) 3/ Once you get into a contract, its really hard to get out. This one is pretty self explanatory. Conclusion: You may think what you have learned now is good, but try something else and it'll most likely be better

Answer 14

Like Cheetah, I don't hate ATA, but honestly, I've heard far too many horror stories by former ATA students to ever really trust ATA. If these horror stories were coming only from people who'd never spent a day in their lives studying at an ATA school, all right, you'd have some basis in insisting that they're out of line for their comments and I'd likely agree with you - but remember, these stories are coming from people who *were* ATA students (often for years) and who then saw how other schools teach Tae Kwon Do, and there are far too many of these former ATA students relating such stories to simply brush them off as a few disgruntled individuals out for revenge against ATA for whatever reason. That (in my humble viewpoint) tends to lend a certain amount of credibility to what they're saying.



So while I may not "hate" ATA in the standard sense of the word, I'm saddened by what they're doing to an otherwise good martial art (I know someone who is a 6th Dan in traditional style TKD who even used some of what he learned in TKD to teach hand-to-hand combat in the United States Marine Corps). I'm disappointed that ATA doesn't seem to care what they're doing to their students, good people who don't realize they're being duped. I'm annoyed that ATA is giving such a bad reputation to chain schools that there are more than a few of my fellow martial artists who assume that *all* schools that operate under a larger organization's banners are bad. And yes, I'm frustrated that ATA charges as much as they do. The above mentioned 6th Dan rarely goes charging beyond $130 a month to teach TKD to begin with, and every time I've actually watched him talk to prospective students, he'll bend over backwards to hand out as many discounts as he can (such as family discounts and even offering 15% off to those who hold a membership to the Golds Gym in the same strip mall that the school is in); and while he offers contracts of 3 months, 6 months, and one year, he also offers month-to-month billing, and I've seen him openly tell new students to go with the month-to-month option until they're sure they like it there (he says he only does the longer contracts because he's a martial arts instructor, not a bookkeeper, and the longer contracts save him time and hassle by not having to bill everybody monthly).



Now, are there some ATA schools that really are good, where the students in those specific ATA schools can actually learn beneficial things? All right, I'll acknowledge that it's possible. But such schools, from what I can tell, would be few and far between, and are outweighed by the far larger number of bad ATA schools.

Answer 15

the ATA is a positive nurturing environment, where you can have fun and get excercise and feel good about yourself. on the downside, you aren't learning martial arts, more like dance moves, the prices are extremely high in most places, they usually lock you in with contracts, and it can instill a fake sense of security into people, but if you enjoy doing it, then don't let anybody stop you, just know that you aren't going to be learning self defense, but there is definetely benefits from the ATA, but they don't teach martial arts.

Answer 16

@"Peaceful mantis":



The 'simplistic and violent approach to martial arts' is exactly what you should take if you wish to actually be able to fight. You are probably only speaking ill of people who train this way out of jealousy; because you know you're not tough enough (mentally as well as physically) to handle full-contact sparring.



Merriam-Webster defines 'martial' as "of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior".

By definition, martial arts are arts of war... the violence is precisely what makes them 'martial' arts.

Mindlessly practicing forms and kata all day long (as is commonplace in a lot of so-called Karate/TKD schools) is not martial and will not make you a fighter. The main reason people get into martial arts is because they want to learn how to handle themselves should they ever have to fight. This is the problem people have with organizations like the ATA. They don't prepare their students for the realities of violent confrontation.



@Daoshi:

Are you retarded, drug addled or just pig-headed?



Read the sentence again and concentrate especially on the first word:



"Mindlessly practicing forms and kata all day long (as is commonplace in a lot of so-called Karate/TKD schools) is not martial and will not make you a fighter."



I deliberately used the word 'mindlessly' so that people wouldn't get the wrong idea.

Unfortunately I forgot that the average Yahoo Answers user has the vocabulary and comprehension skills of a 5-year-old. Your status as a top contributor is a reflection of this.

Answer 17

ATA is a business model geared toward personal growth and life skills, with a base of martial arts, the people who hate it prefer a more somplistic and violent approach to martial arts, if your goal is getting eyebrows like nick diaz ATA is NOT the place to go,(nick Diaz btw has great fighting skill, he just does not display many of the better martial art values when in front of a camera) if you are happy at ATA DONT QUIT, once you are a blackbelt, you can discuss with your master about joining/learning other martial arts.



last but not least, never take advice from people who are not where you want to be. take advice on money from someone who has a lot of it, take martial arts advice from someone who has skill and experience.



blessings on your journey,