Groundhog's day in my forms. Why do we repeat movements?

Question

I get it that sometimes, we turn 90 degrees, and other times we turn 180 degrees, or 270 degrees. These have different applications even though the technique is the same. I'm not asking about this.

I also get it that some sequences - like punches - are done two or three times in a row. This usually has a specific application and is meant to be considered an atomic unit. So I'm not asking about this, either.

I'm talking about a set of movements, for example, low block + punch. We might do this as the first movement, then 10 movements later we'll do it again, then 10 movements later we'll do it yet again.

If we accept the theory that a movement (low block, in this example) can have many applications, then there should be no reason to implement this movement ever again in the form.

It would seem to me like a waste of time to repeat a movement, when a singular instance of the movement can suffice for all repeated movements. Even if we consider that the previous step of the repeated movement, and the continuation if it by using the repeated movement, it stands to reason that the application considered for the first instance can still apply.

So then, why repeat a sequence across forms?

To give a taekwondo example(WTF), taeguek 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6; and Palgwe 1, 2, and 3 all start with the same low block; these forms, and others, make use of the exact same low block. If a movement can be interpreted in many ways, why would there be a need to repeat a technique in a form/forms?

Maybe your style doesn't repeat techniques?

Maybe your style's set of forms are borrowed from other styles' forms, who, way back in their day, only had single forms (or at least, non-repeating movements)?

If we had just relegated a low block to the first movement if the first form, then we could make use of other techniques in the rest of the form (and forms) rather than repeating the technique.

Answer 1

I'd say the most obvious explanation is that the movement is important. If you were creating a "playbook" for people to follow, wouldn't you have them repeat the same sequence if you thought it was a valuable one?



As for the "one move has many applications" theory, I can see the possibility that the sequences that precede or follow the movement may show different applications. A downward "block" that is preceded by a lunge punch may have a different application than one that is preceded by an outside "block".



That said, I think in the overwhelming majority of instances, those who interpret forms, especially Japanese and Korean ones, are pretty much just doing a form of archaeology based on "context clues" more than anything else. I think that's why we get multiple interpretations of a single movement- because it's several different people trying to find meaning to a movement, a meaning that has ultimately been lost to the ages.



Honestly, if you find a movement that works for you, then go with it. Don't stop questioning or experimenting, but I don't think any single interpretation, at least as long as it's been through a BS filter, is any more valid than another.

Answer 2

there are several reasons for this.

-in kyushu when you strike the same point three times you create an area that becomes very sensitive.

-in energy flow it is to show that it can be done with either side of the body (both left and right) they say not all moves are effective when it comes to the energy of the body.

-your not striking the same target. or performing the move on the same target. the first low block is the trap, the second you are attacking the limb or destroying the limb in the trap and the third you are attacking the body or going after the body in the next maneuver.

those three can be the same technique but server three distinct purposes







edit:>

can you post a link to your form



one possible reason.

it use to be that a form ended where ever it ended. now a days people want uniformity for competition, so they want the forms to start and stop in the same place, so they added those repetition moves in

another possible reasons.

each form was meant to emphasize a different technique, as well as hide those techniques and tactics from others, they wanted to add for lack of a better term filler movements in, to make the real purpose more obscure.

there are other reasons as well besides these two.





as for my third reason its because of opportunity, you are creating the opening by using the repletion. which was not available during the first two movements. as well as interrupting the balance of the opponent. you will notice these repetitions moves have momentum in the same direction usually forward, you are taking advantage of this momentum and your opponents openings and possibly lack of balance.

Answer 3

That's a good question possum and I hope all the beginners read it and my answer. The reason why is to achieve consistency of executing the technique properly. Remember that technique is everything in a lot of things, especially in martial and fighting arts and a person being able to do that kick, punch, strike, block, brush, or sweep correctly every time no matter if they are tired, getting winded, or fatigued.



A poorly trained student or fighter or one of poor skill will get sloppy in their execution as they get tired. Also that is the easiest time for mistakes and flaws to creep in and occur or be seen or observed when testing also. You want your techniques to be done correctly and perfectly every time no matter what and doing and seeing them like what you are asking about helps demonstrate if a student can do this and their essence. A strong, well trained student or fighter will still focus on doing and executing things correctly in spite of being physically tired or fatigued. They don't allow those things that they are physically experiencing to affect their mental approach to things and their execution.

Answer 4

Forms are not just about the specific posture or technique(s) with a specific move, but also about the interconnectivity between one move or posture to the next. Not knowing your specific kata, I can only go by the forms I've been taught which does repeat. Of the forms I do when a specific move is repeated the previous and subsequent moves are different.



For example, designating the moves by letters it would look something like this ABCDBFGHBIJK... Very few moves have one and only one applications as you stated, but the transition from one technique to another is just as varied and requires just as if not more awareness.



Combat is fluid. It is an ever changing constantly varied environment where you must be able to flow from one technique to the next without having to think and without missing a beat. The ability to transition IMHO is what makes or breaks your fight. Anyone can do a technique by itself or a pattern/combo, but to survive in combat, you must be able to join seamlessly one move to the next.



Think of your writing skill that began with learning how to print individual letters, then write words using block print, then progress to cursive handwriting. I bet these days you can connect any letter of the alphabet to another without any conscious thought. When you write, it is no longer an exercise in executing the individual letters, but you think in terms of words and sentences.

Answer 5

The same technique is done in different forms/kata in my opinion is because each kata was created by different people. There is no one author for ever kata that is within your system. The reason for the same or similar set of techniques done within the same kaa goes back to what you said you are not talking about. It is a different set of application because of the movement or change in direction.

Answer 6

Very good questions. I too am not completely sure why some things are repeated at different places. i understand say, stepping three times in a row and striking or punching each time. As you said there are specific things that something done three times in a row tell us about the technique. Any stance or move can have multiple applications. When I first began to understand this I assumed that if a specific technique had several applications, then other styles of martial arts that did the same Kata would likely have the same applications for them. Not so. I find that I learn much by taking a look at any Kata from any style, If I see that someone knows some of the hidden applications in their Kata. Often I learned new things by chance. I used to attend a few tournaments, not to compete but ti come in contact with other black belts from other styles. It was my habit to make small talk and bring the conversation around to the Kata. I'd ask them if the took their Kata apart to examine them for Kyusho and Tuite. If they did n0t understand the question I knew that they knew nothing for what was in their Kata. If they said yes, then I'd get them aside where we could talk further. Often people would be reserved. sometimes I would have to show them something from one of my Kata and its applications. Then they would show me theirs. Many times they would have something totally different.



Going back I know we that understand the purpose of Kata are so busy trying to find the hidden that we forget the first and most basic of a Kata purposes. Before anyone can use the more advanced applications, they really need to have developed excellent technique, coordination, the ability to change from one technique to another seamlessly. In other words we do need to develop muscle memory. It would seem that the techniques you are referring to are almost always very basic moves such as a low block or punch. Obviously, the creators of the Kata wanted us to develop good ability to do the techniques both left and right. It would seem logical to place simple basics in the kata again and again in order to get us to practice them until they are second nature. Another possible reason is that if a Kata is very lop sided (moves only done once) there is total chaos and confusion when doing them. We all try to make things fit or seem balanced. We see shapes in things that do not have shapes because our minds tend to want to find a reason in things. We look at a cloud and see a shape of something families. We are happier and more at ease when we can have balance in things. I have experimented a little with what I learned from Bill Hayes, Hayes Sensei explained what he called Honto Kata. In Honto Kata as I understand it you only repeat something once. Even The most basic Kata (a sideways H pattern of steps), no longer turns left blocking down then steps forward into a punch more than once. In other words you do the left side, but do not turn 180 degrees and repeat it again. This seems something simple to do, but it brings up other questions. If things are repeated only once, then what direction do you turn after doing the first block and punch? for that matter do you even turn 90 degrees to the left to do the first block? And does it even matter?



Another thing that it is easy to assume or get stuck on, even if you know better, is the misconception that Kata assumes multiple attackers. We all know that in a real fight multiple attackers would just overwhelm you if they can, and are likely to. so I never believed that there were several attackers. I believe that each element (move, stance, ...etc.) is meant to be examined for its own applications against only one attacker. The next move might be used against one attacker but at a different time, place, or situation. In other words a technique does not have to make sense when related to the move before it or the one after it. In some cases they do fit together. In others they are used alone or with a technique from another part of the Kata or even a move from a totally different Kata. Master Seiyu Oyata could easily take a move from one Kata and a move from a different Kata and create a realistic application from them.





...

Answer 7

Perhaps one of the reasons, is in order to show the importance of a specific movement at the time. So if something is repeated more often than something else, in a specific form, it means more attention at the time needs to be given to that...



For example if in the first form of a style, a downward block is repeated more often than other movements, is perhaps in order to show that in that form, more emphasis needs to be given in that.



The downward block is one one of the easiest movements for someone strong enough, to make it work against a kick, with out having the experience on it.



So one of the reasons that in the first forms of certain styles that movement is more often repeated, is perhaps for more emphasis to be given in that, in order for students to start with that and progress accordingly.



Another reason is that later on, this movement becomes a movement with many applications, so perhaps more emphasis is to be given also due to that.



So two reasons that I see, are related for the start and for the continuation of learning something...



Is like the codes get also percentages.



With all due respect to everyone, I disagree with the belief that forms have not multiple attackers applications...That can not be the case since a great deal of self-defense cases are either with multiple attackers against one, either with multiple friends against multiple attackers, either with multiple friends against an attacker..In addition among Anko Itosu's ten precepts of karate the tenth precept is saying....



"In the past, masters of karate have enjoyed long lives. Karate aids in developing the bones and muscles. It helps the digestion as well as the circulation. If karate should be introduced beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants. I further believe this can be done by having all students at the Okinawa Teachers' College practice karate. In this way, after graduation, they can teach at the elementary schools at which they have been taught. I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation and our military. It is my hope you will seriously consider my suggestion."



Many people that I know, myself included (no reason of hiding it in this question) have defended successfully against multiple attackers. They are not masters of anything and I am not a master in anything..So if me and many people that I know that we are not masters in anything have done so, with out great difficulty to be honest, how can I realistically expect that someone that has devoted his life in this enough to write those codes, wouldn't have being able to do so, ever.



Many of the well known ones, have defended themselves against multiple attackers as well, so the ones that were responsible of passing the codes, have obviously done it as well...



P.S I wouldn't even have being born if my grandfather was not able to fend off a murdering mob carrying axes and knives that have just killed his neighbor...His neighbor's memorial is still on, and the story is not an ancient one but a quite modern one.... The witnesses are still alive, and they are the ones that told me so, in an adult age, and not my grandfather which also lived to his very old age...He was also a WW2 veteran and the dates of the specific riots and events are known as facts and not as stories.

Answer 8

As an introduction to the new mind. People struggle enough with these repetitive katas that were made completely for beginners, try teaching them something like Sianchin or Kanku right off the bat and watch their minds explode.

Answer 9

WOw I have to answer later when I have some time.





Consider that in some kata you are transitioning from one move to another. Doing these on both sides of the body is important to build muscle memory. and get the feeling of going from one position to another. Sometimes it is for demonstration in my opinion so the form can be seen from all sides. Particularly the white belt form in T K D.



Sometimes It is to pay tribute to some historic event when needs to be a certain number of moves as again in T K D.



For our Juniors classes we took out the repetition so we could focus on technique. This has helped a lot.



The traditional forms in T K D are most of the time done in four directions. I have heard a lot of reasons for this some to do with the four elements and some for the sake of repetition. Repetition is good. I know it can seem boring however it is how you get speed and accuracy. When I used to shoot in competition I used to go through about 1000 rounds of 22 cal a month while training.



Puggpaws you need to write a book. I would like a copy. I would make it required reading for my students. I don't always agree with you just 99% of the time and when i don't I can still see where you are coming from!