Anyone know what reality is?

Question

This question is about self defense not street fighting.
How come so many people insist that you have to train yourself to a Gracie level in order to be able to defend yourself, and the same people think that anything other then MMA is garbage for self defense?

I agree that anyone needs to have some familiarity with the ground, however how skilled do you really need to be? Most self defense situations are brought about by somebody wanting to try and take something you have. How worried should I be about random muggings and attacks from skilled MMA fighters? Most people who attack out of the blue and give you no option are going to be untrained, ignorent people who are too strung out or lazy to get a job. What % of attacks with no provecation do you think are commited by trained fighters? Yes I may be mugged by a MMA person, but I may also get struck by lightning. Your thoughts please on is this a real threat we face now days?

Answer 1

Well this thread has been at least the most sensible to date on this particular subject of who's got the bigger wiener.



There are a few great answers, Katana, I believe that your argument accompanying the question was well rounded and convered the bases of both sides.



jswentworth-

I don't think that he's accusing you solely, or the people of Bullshido.net. I know at least I enjoy reading up on some of the things that site has to offer, IE: the Dux ninjitsu crud...



I also agree with your statement of many "TMA" saying they'd do this and that to this and that. It is really easy to differentiate from who's had experience, though we can't forget that also holds true for the other side of the fence. I've had many, many MMA guys try and tell me that there's no way I can defend myself from the clinch this or lock that, or the shoot.



I've only consented a couple of times to partake in a no holds barred demonstration, as my goal in the martial arts world is not to promote violence or egotism. (thought this response may indicate otherwise) Those demonstrations were over very quickly. The worst two were within the past year where a guy got a broken foot, and another had broken fingers. The fights lasted no longer than about 15 seconds or so, with both being experienced fighters. Not even long enough to get warmed up, and I was outweighed by 40-60lbs, and one inch shorter than one of them.



The point of that statement is I have studied several different styles of martial arts, and never have stepped in the boxing/mma gym, nor have I focused intensely on JJ, or other wrestling arts. I have plenty of real world experience, and my sparring in the dojo was more than enough to prepare me for things to come then, now, and in the future. So nobody HAS to train in the MMA ring to get the right training, and there are other avenues of more than adequate methods for self defense training.



Tao J-

You are so right! Nowadays it should be just a contingency plan. We're no longer in the days where we have to fight for food, land, and whatever else. Most of the time, approx 99%, fighting is all about ego!



If you're worried about getting mugged you've got to do something about it, but the biggest thing you can do and the quickest is to take an attitude and awareness class. Just by sheer observation and body language you can avoid confrontation. I've done it several times, especially in foreign streets in foreign places. No words need be said, no fists need be thrown.



Big Dog-

Confidence is a major influence as well. just as in my previous statement. Just having confidence in yourself, would make you able to perform tasks that otherwise seemed impossible.



bunmjutsu-

Always a pleasure to read your responses.



I train in an Okinawa System and we incorporate locks, throws, grapples, sweeps, and takedown defense, along with the striking, and kyusho applications.



I find it funny that people work so hard to be this tower of muscle and try and define their combat skills by that strength alone. All this when martial arts were created for the weaker to match with or out class thier larger opponents. I've seen a man who was very old, late 60s-early 80s take on several young virile men full blast at the same time, and win! This guy who looked like he couldn't tear open a paper bag!



pugpaws2-

Long time no see, hope things are well.



That is definitely a true statement of the fact that we pretty much aren't training more than semi-realistically. Aside from those few times when throat tearing, bone breaking, and eye gouging are in the mix, whoah!?



edit- capoierista I must've read over your thread.

You made an excellent point about there being more than one on one. Throughout most of my life, there have only been a handfull of altercations I was involved in where it was one on one. Most of the time I had an Ear Talker (you know what I'm talking about), the quiet but ready guy in the gaggle of people, and the loud-mouth's instigator. Those are never fun and most of the time you have to defend yourself quickly and brutally or take extreme humiliation before you can get away. I've done both, and at the appropriate times.

Answer 2

One of the most important lessons I learned from my Teachers is that you cannot possibly know what is going to happen. You will never know when or how a person is going to attack you.



In contrast, a trained person will have an advantage that borders on foresight.



I have mentioned here that my sparring consists of a series of multiple attacks for 30, 45 and 60 seconds. No matter where they end up, it doesn't end until the time is up. Every exchange winds up on the ground. So I personally feel strongly about ground techniques.



A very high level Okinawan Master said in my presence that Naihanchin kata has great ground techniques, so I know that an Okinawan arts practitioner will not be void of them.



The notion that mma is the "be all and end all" of the ultimate testing ground is just plain old ignorant.



Practicing your techniques repeatedly is the key to becoming proficient in your art.



I had an altercation with a crazed crackhead who was a well trained martial artist when I was a brown belt and it became real ugly. That was a fluke, I guess.

Answer 3

The fact is, before MMA, BJJ or Grappling became well known, Karate, Kung FU or TKD were considered the ultimate styles for self defense. Everyone was scared of a dude that knew Karate. Now everyone thinks it's a joke. MMA and Reality fighting arts are what's "sexy" right now.



But nothing works 100% of the time.



My training is in TKD. I have some boxing. I know some Judo throws. I have 3 basic submission moves on the ground that I drill, and am proficient with. But do you know what my favorite self defense moves are?



1. RUN

2. If I can't run, I fight with my hands until I can reach one of the several blades I carry on my person.

3. If it is nearby, and the situation demands it, I go for my gun.



In truth, it has been well over a DECADE since I have had to employ any of these methods on the street. I've never in my life been mugged, and God willing, it will not happen. I have ideas on what I would do, like I said, nothing is 100%. I get in more physical confrontations in my line of work than I do in my normal life, ( and there I have a .357, a PR-24 baton, and plenty of backup) mostly because I try to stay my @$$ at home. MMA is peaking. Things that peak tend to fall off at some point. Something else will take it's place. Maybe not in our lifetime, but rest assured it will.



P.S. A lot of your "street" attacks are going to involve weapons. Sometimes there will be more than one attacker. They will probably have weapons. It's fine to be proficient in the 4 ranges of combat, but the game changes when weapons come into play. Watch the evening news. People don't get murdered in hand to hand combat in an alley. They get shot, stabbed beaten with blunt objects and occasionally strangled.

Answer 4

Katana, I'm with you on this one. I know that most fights end up on the ground. The thing that I don't understand is the idea that many people have that a fight is going to last long enough for conditioning, endurance, ....etc. to make a difference. Statistics that came from the FBI some years ago said that most fights last just a few seconds. Having been attacked several times I know that all my experiences were over quickly. So conditioning is fine. Personally I'd rather spend my time practicing realistic self-defense rather than going a number of rounds with a partner. Besides that is not realistic. When it gets down to it no one can say that they practice realistically, unless every time they train they are intending to either kill or be killed. Anything less than that is at best near reality.

We all need to be well rounded. Being able to fight standing or on the ground is necessary. However I want to take the attacker down, but not necessarily go to the ground myself. I see to many people with the mind set that no matter what happen they intend to go to the ground with the attacker. While that is OK in some situations, what happens if you are attacked by a second attacker while you are on the ground with the first one. Good luck if it happens to you.



Edit: I don't agree with jswentworth when he says that the only way is to do mma fighting to test your skills. That is assuming that your attacker is highly trained. It is very rare that someone of real skill attacks someone. Yes be oprepared but that is not necessary. The martial arts are about anyone of any age being able to defend-themselves. Guys in their 70's-90's should be able to defend against an attacker without having to rely on youth, strength, mat time,.....



Edit: a lot of good comments here on this one. I've enjoyed participating in this one. Thumbs up guys!

Answer 5

Reality is an objective state of how things that exist are. No one knows why there is a reality. Reality is not usually personified so no one. Whether there is a reality is questionable, however the sensory information we are consciously receiving would say that there is. Reality is something that is objective and absolute during intervals of time, though it may be perceived differently by several individuals, there is in fact no alternate reality. This is unless you subscribe to some sort of determinist multiverse *** gravy. By definition something would have to be to be a part of reality, so existence is dependent on being real.

Answer 6

You are likely not to get attacked in a violent crime first of all. About 2% of Americans are ever involved in a violent crime of any sort. Take into account the fact that most of these incidents are young males, and most of these attacks take place in low income urban areas, and you are looking at a 1 in 1000 chance (or even less) of being attacked, depending on your particular circumstances. Being attacked by a high-level martial artist...virtually no chance.



So in "reality" training for self defense is not effective or prudent. Still, being physically fit, prepared to defend ones self or family if needed, and all the other benefits of training are worth it to me. Plus I enjoy it.



I think of training as an insurance policy - I'm not likely to get in a fatal accident either, but I'd rather have the insurance in the unlikely and tragic event I need it.

Answer 7

Reality is surviving by what ever means possible.I agree with the bullshido guy you can tell the "never had to " guys by the "if he tried that I would do this " answers.

I also agree with katana that those that say "well trad ma doesn't do this or do that" haven't got a clue about trad ma .FUNAKOSHI the founder of shotokan in an interview reminisced about the many hours he spent in TEGUMI matches which is a okinawan style of wrestling jujutsu combo.The founder of WADO kai OHTSUKA was a jujutsu master long before he took up karate.These men hid arm locks chokes and throwing entrys in their kata.

The problem arises in the many sevicemen who attained 1st degree black belts and came back to this country thinking they knew it all but were basically only begginers in regards to all that trad ma contains but they opened dojo anyway .Some not many periodically returned to increase their knowledge they recieved the grappling locking skills but they are to few so that any view the public has about trad ma is wrong.



You dont need to be in super shape or train endless hours or years to be able to defend yourself there are guys with no training who can do that very well.

You put in the hours and years because you love it to put in those hours just to learn how to fight is really a low ambition.

Answer 8

I don't think it's as much about how skilled you "need" to be as it is, how skilled you need to be to "feel" confident in your ability to defend yourself in that kind of situation. Society tells us we have to be black belts in whatever martial art it is to be good at it. We have to be the best!! T.V. tells us it has to be BJJ, MT, Boxing, or Wrestling. Preferably all of them together. If you aren't training from a world class athlete that was a former or current world champion the your school sucks and you can't defend yourself. It's sad that that is the message that's out there, and judging by this very forum on a daily basis it's being heard loud and clear. The question should be, How do we teach the youth (that will be the next generation of martial artists in our world) that all this hype isn't the only way to go. As much as I enjoy watching MMA I have to ask myself if it's bad for martial arts on the whole.

Answer 9

In the ring MMA (aka ground fighting) has dominated other styles for many reasons. But this domination has clouded many heads of martial artist.

Question: How many opponents can you defend while on the ground?

Answer: One.

So why do people think it is such a superior fighting style in all situations even those where people are attacked by groups? Because they see their hero's on TV making mince meat of all comers.



This subject invokes many subject of discussions and rantings from me, many too lengthy to begin here. Like; when did MMA (mixed martial arts) become a synonym for ground fighting, or even Gracie Jujitsu????!!!

But I digress, all fighters who want to be referred as such should know how to defend themselves in the four more common situations with at least a 33% survival ratio; Long range (just outside kicking), boxing, clinch, and ground. Thats it, period!

Answer 10

aye, agreed sir, really most fights end with one good punch anyway, if its one on one, which it probably won't be. but ive also found that if your against multiple people, just fighting back proficiently enough to hurt one can cause the others to back off, although that is a bit of a dangerous move seeing as how it could have undesired consequences



at any rate, the only times my friends or myself have been mugged is by hoodrats, although that one time they did have a wrench... still, they seem to like throwing wide punches, which almost inevitably makes them fall into the person they are trying to punch, which results in a poor clinch and then falling to the ground. so yeah, i agree with you pretty much completely

Answer 11

I train in the external/internal arts of shaolin kung fu, shuai jiao, and san shou. And guess what!? We acualyl train hard and use techniques in sparring. You dont have to train Muay Thai and BJJ to be good fighter. Granted, those are graet arts, but whoever says they are the only good one, they are idiots!! Straight up. I practice traditional martial arts, and I also practice them in the way they were supposed to practiced. I love all martial arts, including the art of western boxing. Im sorry if you want to be a clone and do what everyone else is doing folks. Hell, back in the 80's karate was popular because of the karate kid movie. Now Bjj is the beez-neez because of the UFC. Im not a robot, I dont follow what everyone else is doing, I follow my own path. I love bjj,muay thai, grec-roman , all that, but I also love xing yi, southern mantis, wing chun, goju-ryu, aikido, ect. If you train hard , regardless of what style, you have a better chance at defending yourself than the un-trained average person, regardless of style! Im only 21, and I have alot of training to do, so see ya later

Answer 12

A little bit of judo and/or wrestling is fine for basic self-defense. How to roll someone up.



I've never been mugged, but have had friends jump on me out of nowhere and the above enabled me to put them in positions where I could have really disabled them if I had needed.

Answer 13

ok, i agree with you but let me expand on that a bit.



the only "self-defence" scenario is not always going to come from some mugger, and when it does, that mugger will:



1- be armed, and



2- have the drop on you.



so while you are right that they might not be a skilled groundfighter, they will have an advantage that even george silver or musashi could not overcome, namely the knife is already at your throat, the gun is already levelled and ready to fire.



realistically thats the "self-defence" situation you are talking about. for which simple awareness and weapons training with the knowledge of how and when to take it out (concealed weapons) is better than any unarmed art.



there is also the realistic danger that your "mugger" might freak and kill you anyway, this is a fair concern so simply "handing over" the object or cash or limited edition janet jackson furbee doll might not be the solution eitehr.



where is the answer- there is none. its a case by case basis but your best mode of self-defence when in an area where a mugging is most likely to happen is in fact concealed weapons with a mix of unarmed (as it relates to weapons) and primarily bieng aware.



and there IS the reality (other situation) that you are involved in a street fight, bar fight, club fight or just want to imiate the skinny guy from the 60's atlas ads in comic books on the beach (don't lie, you KNOW what I'm talking about), maybe you can run from these, but our ego won't always let us, nor maybe space depending on where you are located and where he is.



this "unarmed" altercation is where you will see many people try to tackle you (even if they are untrained) in an attempt to stop the flurry of punches from striking thier face. thats natural human reaction in an untrained fighter. so naturally the "untrained" guy will try some form of takedown or tie you up and muslce you. this is why you DO need some form of defence to this that is realistic and not the debunked wing chun "anti-grappling" crap.



true, odds of running into gangs of bjj hooligans are rare (actually I met one of these gangs when I was out last weekend; we got wasted and took turns humping denise richards before masturbating to snowboarding videos), but you do need to train against bieng taken off your feet or tied up, and if you can stop a person who knows how to take you down or throw you- you certainly should be able to stop some untrained idiot who had one too many, and if you are the one that had one too many, then because you can take out a trained guy, you should be able to do something besides flounder around like a jackass when he tries to take you down or grapple you.



EDIT: i would also like to add that (sorry for dissertation- this really should be on a message board not y/a), in this case, I don't think MMA training even 3 years will be as effective against a guy with a knife who KNOWS HOW TO USE IT (maybe he studied FMA). in short I think its all relative to what the situation is and what you are using it for.



in the end we are really all hobbyists and most fights CAN be avoided we just chose not to because we have delusions of granduer that if you kick the jerks *** you will get the girl. In reality you will probaly end up in the can and spend all night trying to avoid bieng the girl.



seriously though, it is all about realistic thought, and I think no "realistic" martial arts or str33t martial arts discussion can be complete without a discussion of the reality of your attacker surprising you and/or pulling a weapon and using it.



there are tons of knuckleheads out there ready to shoot, stab, club, etc. you over nothing. there is no answer. so long as you train realistically and realize the limits of your training, you are one step ahead of most people.



I don't know about you but I don't have the time to train in multiple arts simultaneously, work out, go to work, get some *** and hang out. I'm a hobbyist- we all are, so we need to do the best we can without bieng paranoid freaks that the secret ninja society is hiding around every corner waiting to ambush us with knives and nunchaku. train realistically, have a drink get some ***.

Answer 14

You are misunderstanding the situation. Folks like myself and others at Bullshido.net aren't insisting that everyone should be trained to Pro MMA levels of competence, most of us aren't either. But we do insist that training be done in a way that allows people to pressure test their techniques. And we encourage everyone to train in a complete system, one that address standing, clinching, and ground. The best current way to do that is to train in an MMA gym. The best current test of techniques is MMA fighting.

The logic is that if you can perform a technique under pressure against a trained opponent then doing so against an untrained opponent will be that much easier.

In fact, after a year or so of decent MMA training most people will be able to hold their own with untrained people who are 60lbs heavier than they are. After 3 years they will easily handle people who are 60-80 lbs heavier than they are. And what's more they will KNOW they can do it, not just think they can. They will have done so many times in class against new students, they will have competed against other trained people in their own weightclasses at competitions and they will KNOW what kind of skills they have.

Many people I've encountered from Kung Fu, Karate, and TKD schools say things like "If someone tried to take me down I'd just elbow them in the spine or sidekick them in the face" or something else that shows they've never actually tried to stop someone from tackling them.

I've seen BJJ/GJJ/Judo guys say equally stupid things like "If he tried to punch me I would just throw him." which shows they've never tried to stop someone competent from punching them.

It is necessary to train your techniques against a resisting opponent under the most realistic possible circumstances which can be safely achieved. MMA matches are the current best way to do that.

And yes, violence is a daily occurrence in our society. Just watch the news. People are attacked, things happen. Is it the biggest thing I worry about during my day? Far from it. But I enjoy training anyways, so self defense applications are jut a side bonus.

The bottom line is that if you are learning something primarily for life or death self defense you are better off carrying a gun, a tazer, pepper spray, etc... But if you can't carry those then you need to be trained in an effective art, and the only way to KNOW an art is effective is to fight with it. And so far the art that has the most evidence of being effective is the combination of techniques that makes up modern MMA, which is primarily composed of Muy Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and Judo. There are scatterings of other things like Karate and Taekwondo, but they aren't as prevelant.



So, Bottom line. You don't have to be Anderson Silva to defend yourself from a mugger, but you should train with the same methods, even if it 's not to the same level.

Answer 15

Reality is the perception of life that an individual has. Each persons reality would differ from the next persons because experiences and knowledge come into play as well. And because each person has different past experiences and different educational backgrounds peoples collective perceptions of the world will differ.

Answer 16

The mistaken conceit of the MMA enthusiasts is that the controlled environment of the ring is the ultimate test of any martial art.



The reality of any martial art is a real life street fight with no rules, referees, or ticket buying fans$$$$ ( witnesses) to watch.



So any martial art that does not teach: kata, weapons usage, weapons defense, or defense against mulitple attacks, is NOT REALISTIC.

Answer 17

You're completely right but most people will never understand that.