Four Questions about self defense unarmed, what to do and why no self defense experts have talked about it?

Question

Today is the anniversary that Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin. I understand ZImmerman's trial is over and he was found not guilty. I'm not retrying the case. My question is about self defense. There have been no self defense instructors anywhere who have come forth to say what you should do if you are caught in Zimmerman's situation and you don't have a gun to shoot, assuming you are able to shoot someone square center in the chest in that limited space


Zimmerman is not guilty, the trial is over, whatever. My question is about what you should do if you are caught in Zimmerman's situation, assuming Zimmerman was telling the complete truth with no exaggerations (i.e. the scratches that were on his head really came from Martin grabbing his bald wet head without losing his grip and breaking his own fingers on the concrete, picking it up and slamming it on the concrete over a dozen times, and not from Martin simply clawing ZImmerman's bald head when Zimmerman was grabbing him). 1) What do you do if someone gets on you in the mount and starts putting their hands on your head and tries to move it up and down and you have no gun to shoot? 2) what do you do if they put both their hands on your mouth and nose and starts smothering you (especially in the rain), and you don't have a gun to shoot them? 3)At the trial, Mark Omara picked up the mannequin by its shoulders instead of the head and body slammed it. What can you do if the top guy picks you up and moves you up and down by the shoulders and you have no gun to shoot them? That could knock the wind out of you, especially with that long range of motion. (as seen in the photo)

4)Another question is why have no self defense experts (other than very few on some sites like http://thefreedombulletin.com/2013/08/how-the-zimmerman-prosecution-blundered-and-lost/) talked about this. Martin did some very dangerous techniques on Zimmerman, moving someones head around could cause serious spinal injuries and smothering them in the rain could cause serious breathing problems.Picking someone up by the shoulders could knock the wind out of them. But no self defense experts have talked about this.

Some that I've spoken to said that Zimmerman was full of ****.
Some other martial artists I talked to supported Zimmerman and said that Zimmerman was telling the complete truth with no exaggerations. But when I asked them what to do if you are in Zimmerman's situation without a gun, they refused to answer the question.

Again,the jury found Zimmerman not guilty, my question is what could you do if you are caught in Zimmerman's situation and you don't have a gun to shoot, and why have almost no self defense practitioners, regardless of whether or not they completely believe Zimmerman's story, come out to address how to deal with these dangerous techniques (head grabbing and moving, nose and mouth smothering, shoulder grabbing and body slamming) if you are unarmed?

Answer 1

"1) What do you do if someone gets on you in the mount and starts putting their hands on your head and tries to move it up and down and you have no gun to shoot?"



I'd get their hands off my head. Or reverse the position. The Upa/bridge-and-roll escape is perfect for that situation. Grappling 101.



"2) what do you do if they put both their hands on your mouth and nose and starts smothering you (especially in the rain), and you don't have a gun to shoot them?"



I move the hands. Really, anyone past the age of six should already have experienced this roughhousing with their friends. I'm surprised this even gets asked. The hands alone aren't very powerful. You can simply bat them away, peal the fingers back, start biting or, you know, move your head from side to side, this changing the angle they need to apply pressure. It really shouldn't be all that hard for anyone of decent health.



"3)At the trial, Mark Omara picked up the mannequin by its shoulders instead of the head and body slammed it. What can you do if the top guy picks you up and moves you up and down by the shoulders and you have no gun to shoot them? That could knock the wind out of you, especially with that long range of motion. (as seen in the photo)"



They're actually in kind of a crap position to do that. In order to execute that maneuver, they've got to use their lower back for power, which is a pretty weak muscle group. And again, the most basic defense is the simplest- remove his hands from you. Or hell, I could probably just bridge and drive my own head into the ground, and it would be pretty hard for someone on their knees to generate the kind of power needed to actually slam me. But first thing's first: escape the position. This is why BJJ training is great: you spend a LOT of time escaping bad positions, including being under mount. Frankly, if the guy isn't throwing punches, and he doesn't know any chokes or locks, he's not hurting me from there.



"4)Another question is why have no self defense experts (other than very few on some sites like http://thefreedombulletin.com/2013/08/how-the-zimmerman-prosecution-blundered-and-lost/) talked about this."



What "experts" are you looking for? How do you know? Maybe there's no reason to address it.

Answer 2

If I were Zimmerman I wouldn't have followed the guy. I might have called the police if I was suspicious. Then let them handle it. and go home to my family.





If I were in the fight I would have shot the kid to protect myself.



If I were Martin I would have shot Zimmerman because I would have felt my life was in danger if he were following me like that.





There are a variety of things to do if you are on the ground like what was said. Zimmerman apparently had been training and should have known several escapes. It should have been too hard since Martin hadn't trained and don't know how to stop the escapes.



We can't speak to why no one on those sites will say what to do in that situation. I can only speak to myself. You need to be in a class that teaches these things. This is not something that is easily explain on an online forum. I can tell you and you more than likely can't do it correctly. I can create a video and you watch it and still can't do it correctly when needed. Things like that are better learned what you actually do them against a partner. In your school we tech you what to do with a partner. Later the partner add some resistance. Later more resistance. Later the attacks or surprised and there is resistance.

Answer 3

There is no way to tell what really happened because there will always be at least 2 stories, the story of the attacker and what he saw, felt and perceived and how he reacted to it and the story of the defender and what he saw, felt and perceived and how he reacted to it which will be different than the story of the attacker plus all the stories of each and every witness as they saw what was happening from the angle where they were at the time and if they saw the whole altercation or just part of it etc.

Bottom line, this story has really no bearing on your questions which are very valid and definitely a concern and I think self defense instructors do address these issues. If you are old enough take a class to get a carry permit. You don't have to follow through on the permit part but the class itself by law has to clue you in what the law is in the state that you live in and they do differ. This alone makes it hard for anybody to publicly comment and influence people as what may be OK to do in my state will end you in jail in your state. It all is really screwed up and therefore becomes a personal choice and really no advice can be given easily.

My personal choice is to do the least possible but enough for me to stay alive (martial arts is about survival not winning) and that will vary on small details as each situation is different. I also include the possibility of a trial and how much it will upset and tear apart my family for years into the equation. Once I made this choice noone has the right to question that choice because they were not there. In court I would do the same only say what is necessary and not volunteer anything that could effect me adversely and be misunderstood and send me to jail. This is what lawyers do. These are the rules by which we play in our country and you got to follow them regardless if you think they are fair or they don't suit you. They are what they are. There are no easy answers.

Answer 4

The "experts" don't address it because they simply don't know how to. Most self defense classes only address the attacks that are found to be the most likely to occour.



I tend to agree with what others have said: BJJ training is the best way to address these issues. However, I don't think BJJ is the ultimate soulution. What if a 250 lb, athletic 22 year old male pins a 120lb female BJJ practitioner to the ground and is raining punches on her face? I just don't see the trap and roll working well if the guy has a solid mount on her. Take the same 250 Lb guy and put him mounted on a 45 year old guy, 150 lbs, who has a couple years to BJJ training, and I still give the big guy 60/40 odds of beating the BJJ guy to death. Panic plays a part here, as well as size, strength, and experience.

Answer 5

Hate to be that guy, but this is why everyone should study some amount of bjj.(I’m not bashing on traditional styles. I’m just saying bjj comes in handy here.)

1. As with standard traditional defense you grab the hand grabbing the head and press it against the head so that the grip is stationary. With that hand trapped you do a roll escape to the trapped hand side by bridging the hips up and rolling to the side. He can’t post to stop the roll because his hand is trapped.

2. Trap hand then same techniques as 1.

3. Clinch their body and bridge to get them to the ground level with you. Trap one of their arms(circle arm, trap their elbow area around your armpit and hold it there) and then bridge roll to their trapped side.

4. While mount is hard to defend without proper knowledge it’s not any more dangerous than a sucker punches and knees to the face or something. The scary aspect comes from being unable to defend rather than actual damage dished out.

The trap and roll is bjj 101 and something you learn as a white belt. Since it’s such a basic technique the more advanced martial artists might have not bothered to comment on it?

Answer 6

What to do in GZ's situation? Hard to tell: both sides of the story paint a very different picture of what happened and who said what. When evidence is ambiguous, or favors the accused, or has the slightest flaw, the accused are supposed to be freed. When evidence unambiguously shows guilt, then the accused is found guilty. So, the accused gets several chances at freedom, and that's part of what got GZ freed: ambiguous evidence.



As to the specific scenarios you mention, these are covered in good schools. Whether SD experts talk about it publicly is another matter, since the GZ/TM case is so politically charged. There are no easy answers to your scenarios. Much depends on your skill, your training, your opponent's skill and training, your objectives, and your motivations. The best way for one person may not be the best way for another person. A good instructor will show several ways, and then you go practice them.

Answer 7

Your question is incomplete and not very clear. There are several techniques to grab from behind and most techniques seem inescapable. It is like performing a magic trick. Unless you know how to do it yourself, it seems impossible. But all problems will have solutions :-) Post your technique in the form of a video and I am sure you will get an answer without much delay!

Answer 8

The person who trained Zimmerman testified that he was "soft" and "not competent" in skills.



This is BS.



Kids who learn a couple of techniques on Youtube go out and have fights and GZ who trained since 2010 knew nothing?



That's a cover up.



We're expected to believe that Martin was beating him down "ground and pound style", and zimmerman managed to pull out his piston and shoot him in the chest?



There's one part of America who claims they believe it, but I don't believe it for a second. They're happy to see "one less" off the street, even if he was doing nothing to anyone.



What a Godless people.