Absorb what is useful, discard the remainder. But when?

Question

Have you ever done this? If so, when during your training did you do it? Why? What gave you the right to do that at your stage of your learning?

What was it you decided should be discarded?

What was it you decided should be absorbed?

Please, I'm not interested in a bio of the person who is generally attributed to this quote, nor am I interested in its justification. I've read quite a bit on the subject. What I'm looking for is your personal experience with it.

Answer 1

Personally as an instructor I always teach everything I have learned. I try to pass on what was given to me as well as I am able. This means I have to keep it fresh in my mind.



Every student is an individual with their own physical and mental makeup. My responsibility to my student is to give them everything as it was given to me.



For myself I know a secret and I pass this on only " Shush" let this be our secret to my best students.

“You will over time find that some of what I have taught you will not work well for you. It may or may not be the same things that work well for me. It is my job as your teacher to give you all that was given to me as best as I am able. It is for you to try to make it all work as best you can; than when you get enough experience you may settle on what works best for you.” That is the secret.



I have personaly removed all high kicks because of hip problems at my age. Of course I still teach them to my students. I have replaced high kicks with some things borrowed from Wing Chung Kung Fu. I also have increased my ability to target pressure points with my low kicks.

Answer 2

I see things this way. When something in common to more than one style it has probably been around for hundreds of years. The whole purpose of the martial arts was for self defense during life threatening situations. So I don't believe the old masters would have practiced anything that was not usable and practical. If I don't see the purpose of something than that does not mean that the technique is not very effective. It means that I am ignorant as to how it should be used properly. A good example of something that people often dismiss as not practical is found in many Kata. The technique I am referring to is what some people call an X block. There is a technique in Kata where you will drop to one knee while executing what looks like an X-block to someone low kick. No one in their right mind would attempt to do such a technique. but then it is not a block for a kick. It is better used as a nasty throw. The situation is such that you have the attackers arm and he is behind you. his arm is locked over your shoulder with his palm up. Dropping down quickly to one knee while lowering his wrist close to you will cause him to take a nasty fall that may be onto his head.

My point is if you really want to know how something it used effectively you might have to spend some time before you discover how it is supposed to be used. Many people are in the monkey see monkey do mindset. That is to say they want it now. They see everything as being what it looks like. Then based on that they dismiss it and move on. They become technique collectors rather than complete martial artists. We all tend to judge things in the martial arts that we do not understand. There are no ineffective techniques, only people that do not know how to use them. We can;t know what it is we don't know. So we should keep an open mind and in time we may learn things that we would not otherwise.





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Answer 3

What gave me the "right"? As a thinking, reasoning human being, I think that "right" is inherent in us all.



I rarely reject anything outright. But I do have a paradigm I'm working with.



-Technique must be useful for the environment I'm focusing on. For example, my grappling focus is on no-gi/jacketless situations. Therefor, outside of gi chokes and a few set-ups for throws, I don't really focus on gi-specific material.



-Technique must not rely on pain or "magic" to work. I'm quite familiar with a few ways to cause pain, but I'm training for an opponent who might not respond to pain alone. As for "magic", mostly I'm talking about the no-touch nonsense.



-Simple techniques are more applicable to more situations than complex ones. The more "moving parts" something has, the greater the likelihood of failure. For example, I spend a lot more time on a jab than on a spinning back kick.



-The more control I have over my own body, the better. I haven't practiced jump kicks since high school, and even though I've fallen in love with the flying scissors takedown, that and other sacrifice throws are low priority.



-Techniques must be run through the "does this do what it says" filter, taking biology and physics into consideration. For example, I've heard the practitioners of some arts say that their single, continuous-motion striking sequence (say, a hook to an elbow strike) will have as much power as the hook if it were thrown as a single shot. This violates the laws of physics.



-Techniques that have been proven to work in the environment we're training for, or in similar environments, get higher priority. For example, if a throw doesn't show up regularly in environments where throws are allowed against resisting opponents (Judo, Olympic wrestling, Sambo, Silat competitions, Shuai Jiao, San Shou, MMA, CCTV security footage) then it gets a lower priority than one that does. Hip throws should be trained more than Putar Kepala.



I think if you're an instructor, you owe it to your students to explain how, when, and why a technique works. I think if you're a student and can't make something work, even after devoting some concerted time and effort to trying, you should leave it alone, and move on to something that you KNOW works for you, and try to build a strategy around that. If you're passing on a "system", you have an obligation to teach the whole thing, but that doesn't mean you need to emphasize the parts with less-practical applications.

Answer 4

I have been in martial arts for over 30 years. I have yet to find anything that is not useful or that should be discarded. There are things that I probably won't use, but that doesn't mean that it should discarded. I don't use high kicks. But they can be valuable. I don't use foot sweeps. My reason is because I'm not good at them. I'm not good at them because I haven't put in the work to be good at them. I have seen how useful they are. I thought I would never use Uki Otoshi. I didn't spend a lot of time perfecting that throw. But one day when this guy tried to attack me he ran towards me and I threw him with that throw before I realized what happened.



All of these techniques work. That is why they are being taught. The problem never lies within the technique. The problem always lies in the individual using the techniques. I like everyone else have my favorites. Those are the ones that You will use the most. Those are the ones the you practice the most. But the reality is we should practice the others more so that we will have more tools in our tool box that we are great at using.





The only thing that is not useful are the things that we refuse to make good use of or that we don't learn to use well.





Do we throw away a hammer and say they are not useful? Do we throw away a screwdriver because we don't use them everyday? They are still useful. We keep them because we don't know if they day will come and we can make good use of them.

Answer 5

Due to circumstances beyond my control I've done a good amount of style hopping, so I've seen very many techniques and styles. There are some that are just easier and come more naturally for me, so I focus my energy on perfecting these attacks and ones that are similar to them because I already know that they will work with my natural body mechanics. Though I do that I will also try and learn other techniques because I've sparred against different styles and you have to fight a little different with every opponent. One of my brother's is a great at boxing and is an infighter, so I will use vastly different techniques against him than I would use against an excellent TKD practitioner.



I will change things from different techniques so that they are easier for me to perform...And there are some techniques I just don't see being practical for me at all so I don't bother practicing them, but I will still keep an eye on how it's done because if I am helping someone who could easily utilize that technique I want to be able to help them with it. I try to soak in as much as I can, and though I may not practice everything, I definitely will put it in the mental filing cabinet just in case I may ever need it, or I can show someone else who'd be great at the technique.

Answer 6

I think everyone already does this, but it's just that it's not analyzed as such. Kind of like discovering air. Everyone knew there was wind and something that they are breathing, but it took analyzation to name it.



Like wise everone learns techniques and decides to practice something else they like better more than those technique they don't like so much. The bases of liking is usually linked to how much you found it useful for you vs how much did this technique mess you up. We don't think of it as 'throwing it out', but when we just stop practicing it outside our required training then we are in practice throwing it out. Of course by practicing what we like and found useful we are keeping it. After all we can't practice everything and be proficient in everything. Our training time and muscle memory doesn't really allow us to do that.

Answer 7

All of these techniques work. That is why they are being taught. The problem never lies within the technique. The problem always lies in the individual using the techniques. I like everyone else have my favorites. Those are the ones that You will use the most. Those are the ones the you practice the most. But the reality is we should practice the others more so that we will have more tools in our tool box that we are great at using.





The only thing that is not useful are the things that we refuse to make good use of or that we don't learn to use well.

Answer 8

I don't think I ever actually completely discard anything I've learned, but I do tend to focus my practice on those things that seem more practical and efficient in a fight situation. Just one example: I have never had occasion (in 46 yrs.) to apply a jump double kick in a fight, or even a multiple opponent sparring session. So that particular technique, although I have learned how to execute it, does not get practiced to the extent of other techniques I have had actual need of.

It's kind of like the traditional names of techniques in their native tongues. While it is neat to be able to know them, it is unnecessary in the wider aspect of training when knowing the American/English name serves the same purpose. I understand that learning the traditional names causes one to focus more on the style and system, but I'd rather have a student focus on how the technique is performed and how it works, rather than what it's called.

There are plenty of techniques I haven't had occasion to use that get practiced regularly though. And I base this on the efficiency of the technique through movement and result. The fewer movements to accomplish the result the better. So in that regard, I guess I do discard techniques that lack a certain efficacy (in my opinion) in their design.



As far as what gave me the right.... It would be my personal perception of what is effective for me. It's my life I'm trying to protect so it's my right to choose what I believe is best suited to me to accomplish that goal. I do have to say though, I did not start discarding techniques until after some 20 years of training. Up to that point I strived to be as proficient at each technique as any other. I found that it took me many more hours than I wished to spend working on something I couldn't see myself needing in a real fight situation.

That would be when I started to focus my more intensive study on efficiency and effectiveness while maintaining a more limited proficiency at the more elaborate techniques. It helps to maintain ability with the more disciplined techniques that require more hours to learn and become proficient at, but the choice of which to focus on and which to apply limited effort to is completely subjective to the individual practitioner.

Answer 9

The only things I have technically discarded are things I just don't remember because I have not had time to practice them---I'm specifically referring to the form Bassai/Pasai, Jinte/Chinte and Kibon/Tekki 4. But I assume they are still there in the subconsicious. I may still be technically practicing them because General Choi's forms are based on the Okinawan/Shotokan patterns anyway.



There are techniques I hate to practice, but, just because I suck at them does not mean that someone else may not be great at them. The only things I won't pass on per se are things that do not pertain to the student's main style. Meaning, I can't teach the Judo students all of the Taekwondo I know, or the Taekwondo students all of the Judo I know, during class, because there simply is not enough time to do so.

Answer 10

Technically, I see what is done, more as a build up, to learn the style. How we learn how to drive for example ..So in terms of how the style actually is, I don't care to disregard something. What I disregard mainly are things that are not in the style itself, but mentalities and opinions on things that people are relating to the style. I tend to take some on those by researching good practitioners of the past and the present but I form my own opinions. So basically I am building my own mindset at any given time. The biggest clearing I have found myself on doing is more on the mentalities and opinions on things that people are relating to the style, rather than anything else. That may sound strange to some, but there is where a lot of cleaning is taking place. About the style it self we are just learning a style, we don't learn something else in my opinion but a style..How do we learn how to drive? The same thing. That is my opinion.

Answer 11

All of these techniques work. That is why they are being taught. The problem never lies within the technique. The problem always lies in the individual using the techniques. I like everyone else have my favorites. Those are the ones that You will use the most. Those are the ones the you practice the most. But the reality is we should practice the others more so that we will have more tools in our tool box that we are great at using.

Answer 12

I guess i look at things completely different to all of you guys because I dont disregard anything completely I may modify something to better it but never disregard something. To tell you the truth i look at martial arts as not only for myself but something that i can give to others. Just because i cant find a way to utilize something or to make something work in a realistic way does not mean that i cannot teach the concept to the next generation.



Of course i dont use the skill myself if i cannot seem to make it work or make it fit with my game but that does not mean i disregard it. I like to keep an open mind and like to think that even though i cannot utilise it that maybe, just maybe someone else might find a practical use for it in their game. Maybe they can take that skill and modify it some way that works wonders and can be mass produced back into martial arts again.



I like to think of it a couple of ways, one being that i love heritage of a style and by picking pieces of a style and disregarding the others then we are basically doing no different to what mixed martial arts is doing. By disregarding something it means that we are losing part of our heritage and part of our style.



Imagine if every martial artist just took what worked for them and disregarded the rest from their instructor. you would only take 70% of the knowledge and teach it to the next generation then this will gradually get broken down more and more until we are bare knuckled apes again dragging clumps of wood around for self defense again. Just because something doesnt work for you, doesnt mean it cannot work for someone else many generations from now.



This is what i believe is one of the differences between a teacher, instructor and a student. a student is only willing to take what they need and use and will disregard the rest. An instructor is a student who disregards the stuff they dont need and instructs students how to do only the techniques that they know and use. A teacher is a person who can look at something and even if they cannot find the benefits of it, still realize it was taught for a reason and pass this knowledge on to their students. They study and learn to understand why the idea works and if they cannot understand why then they still pass the skill on in the hope that the answer will one day appear. rather than just deny its existence.

Answer 13

I think this should start when begin your training. I think it begins in learning and development even at a basic level of any martial art. you train to know your weakness and strengths, all skills work as long as you know these two things. its adapting the skills being taught to you to fit you. Your teacher can show you how to fight, but cant teach you what skills you will adapt to become a better fighting. I don't like using the term useless or useful, because this is process of blocking a set of skills, how does one no if works or doesn't in less you uses them in a fight. sparring helps learn your weakness or strength but a master always makes his weakness his strength and this takes along time to understand and development. it becomes process of self and awareness of self. also adapting becomes that you adapt to any other skill even if you don't no the skill but this happens when martial arts becomes second nature and you no longer think but feel it. To say what skill level you have to learn this is wrong, you should always learn this at even basic training this helps you advance. also this is like any skill you learn in martial arts it should always be evolving to help you. in martial arts we don't stop becoming a skill but a more advanced skill, this comes from the self awareness. theory and philosophy are always adapted the more you learn about your self. I think this is hard subject to understand in its self since all martial artist have different philosophies and theories, I don't think you can say one is wrong or right its a personal preference. since we all are different then we all adapt different. Remember Bruce said he didn't teach you how to fight but how to adapt what is useful for you.

Answer 14

I never did this. I always want to learn everything a style has to offer and not make myself the authority and "discard" what I am not learned enough to see the use in.

Answer 15

you fight the way you train so train the way you fight. i'll use an example from BJJ. some people like to sit on their butts after slapping hands, I stand up.

Answer 16

i disregard techniques that dont fit me. well not entirely i do teach what i can of them. just because they are not right for me doent mean they are not right for someone else.



a technique should be something that works for you, something that is trained until the point of instinct. you cant develop every thing to this point , you need to find ones that fit you and your ability's

Answer 17

I don't know anyone that takes MA seriously that doesn't. But what's "useful" and what's "useless" is all subjective. As KW said, we all do this to discover our own identities as Martial Artists. I look more into the throwing and grappling apps than most people that ID themselves as TKDers. But while people may say that I'm not a TKDer for doing so, that's on them. First and foremost I am a TKDer. I just put a lot more emphasis on getting close and personal.



I do this when I become more and more comfortable with a technique



For me, it came when I looked more and more into applications for our forms